Hi Stoney,
Sorry to bother you again about the disparity of tournament matches but I have found the opponents matching in my current Knockout 5 tournament a little puzzling. In virtually every match, there is a large rating difference between the opponents. I have read the FAQ re. this topic and as I understand it, only the winner in each group of 2 players progresses. This would give the lesser rated players very little chance of progressing. Is that right? If that is the case, why aren't we more evenly matched?

In Knockout 5 there are 20 players. The top rated player has been matched against the 11th rated player, the 2nd aginst the 12th etc through to the 10th against the 20th. In this type of tournament, if the results all go in favour of ratings, the greatest rating gap will be seen in the first round and the smallest in the last, where the 1st and 2nd rated players should meet. As the tournament progresses the players become more evenly matched.

Regards

Yes that is true. But as I asked in my original posting, the lesser rated players would more likely be ellimenated completely, is that correct and would not get an opportunity to get an even game. Is that correct? If so, why cannot players be matched according to their ratings so that they may at least progress some of the way?

I think the flaw goes to when the player joins prior to the tournament when all the players are matched at their current rating at that time. The player's actual rating changes at their external games after the tournament have been decided. Players will be unable to be rematched with other players at their current and latest rating.

I think the flaw goes to when the player joins prior to the tournament when all the players are matched at their current rating at that time. The player's actual rating changes at their external games after the tournament have been decided. Players will be unable to be rematched with other players at their current and latest rating. They will have to finish their games.

I think the flaw goes to when the player joins prior to the tournament when all the players are matched at their current rating at that time. The player's actual rating changes at their external games after the tournament have been decided. Players will be unable to be rematched with other players at their current and latest rating. They will have to finish their games with the players they are matched.

That is the nature of knockout tournaments. The objective is to find the best player in the group. Lower rated players have little chance of progressing. Think of the tennis grand slams. It's very rare for lower rated players to progress beyond the first few rounds.

This is the reason why swiss tournaments are becoming more popular. All players get to play the same number of games and lower rated players will play players of similar ability.

Regards

It really doesn't matter what format.  The lowest rated players are extreme long shots to win.  Swiss system gives them chances to match with other lower rated players, to end up in the final result with a higher tournament finish.  The league format also does the same thing, in that it is a round robin (every player plays every other player).

Even in the Swiss System, the original matchings are Best vs. Worst (ratings).  Most of the time the best progress, and the losers are matched with other losers, the winners against other winners.  Each round, players with similar scores are matched.  I played a 7 round Swiss in which I lost the first two rounds, and still had a chance to win in the final round.  Swiss system might be difficult to integrate into an automatic pairings system.  At times, the pairings come down to somewhat arbitrary decisions by the tournament director.  For example you are left with players with half point differences, or players who have the same number of games with White as the other.  The TD balances those things the best he can, in the course of the whole event.  To Stoney:  If you Google WinTD, they have arguably the best TD software for SS.  They might license their source code reasonably for use in a free online site, perhaps for an ad linking to their website.

The only real way for lower rated players to be competitive in tournament play, is with bracketed events.  Within a 200 to 400 range of ELO, there is some chance of upsets, even several in the same event.  The odds against someone winning when the ELO margins may be 800 to 1100 are astronomical.  The bottom player may win against the best, but he still faces the daunting task of beating several other opponents as an underdog.

The Knockout format, is that used by the NCAA in it's annual "March Madness" basketball tournament.  It is always best vs. worst, as best the selection committee is able to judge.  It's one and done elimination.

For lower rated players, at this time, I recommend the league format events, as they will get to play more games, and get to play others closer to their own rating, as well as the best on the site who enter.  In another thread, Stoney has already promised bracketed tournaments, when the site software rewrite is finished.

WP
 

As a low rated player, it's obvious that I'm not going to do well in any open tournament.  Indeed, my results to date suggest that my current rating is not about to improve.

However, if I'm perfectly honest I'm not overly bothered.  I get to play fun (if sometimes a little brief) games against better opponents.

I can (and do) play non-tournament games against players nearer my rating and, sometimes, win.  

As I mentioned in another thread, the only aspect of open tournaments that does bother me, is me wasting a good players time :), but I figure that if that bothered them they wouldn't enter.

And of course good players can play non-tournament games against other good players as much they like.

I'm not sure this is really an issue.  Bracketed tournaments will be nice when they show up.  but I'll still be entering open tournys as well.  And if I get drawn against the likes of Woodpusher, then so be it :)

James

For some of the higher rated players, it might seem to be a waste of time, beating up on players with lesser skills.   I try to avoid that mindset, and play as if that low rated player is a master.  Not taking an opponent seriously is the quickest route to upsets.  The pieces have the same powers for the master or the patzer, and a stopped clock is right twice a day.

Most players dread games with huge ELO differences because of the downside of possibly losing, and no upside in winning.  Winning ten games with you will not raise my ELO a point, however a single loss or draw will cost me dearly in rating points.

The really dangerous game is the one with with the new player, whose rating is low but may not reflect his true strength as he hasn't yet played enough game to reach his level.

Bracketing tournaments makes the play more competitive and fair for all concerned, and also limiting entry into open tournaments to players with 20 or more complete games helps avoid the unintentional sandbagger getting in.

As mentioned in the previous post, the league (round robin) tournament is the best at present for the lower rated players, because you'll get to play everyone in the event twice, unlike the others which eliminate you after the first round which will always be against a superior opponent.

Regards,
WP

Very well put, WP. My sentiments are very similar. I well remember meeting you when you were rated at about 1200. I'm sure JamesK100 realises that when there is a disparity in ratings, the higher rated player has far more to lose. I too, take lower rated players very seriously and assess my moves with greater care purely because there is so much more at stake. And of course there are those 'sandbaggers', as you put it.
My suggestion to JamesK100 is to avoid tournaments for a while and build up both ratings, and more importantly, playing experience, by playing similar rated players. This will give you a greater ratio of wins and similarly, build up confidence. Often, just a confident attitude will be enough to develop the winning combination.

If he must play tournaments, the round robin gives him the best chances of some success, provided there are others entered at his level.

A better course would be to select opponents to challenge.  I would look for my rating + 100.  You get better by playing better people.  But I would also select opponents by looking at their games, and choosing those who play what I want to play against.  You want to practice and learn a particular variant of the Sicilian, it makes no sense to challenge a player who opens with 1.d4 most of the time.

That presumes a desire to improve, which may not be his burning desire.  If just playing is good enough, that is fine as well, but I've yet to meet anyone who really didn't care about winning at Chess.  Those people play Parchese, or Monopoly.

Regards,
WP